Show HN: I designed an espresso machine and coffee grinder
smeeeeeeeeeeeee | 797 points | 5mon ago | velofuso.com
It was a lot of work as a solo project but I hope you guys think it’s cool. When I say “we” in the website it’s only in the most royal sense possible. I also did all the photo/videography. I started out designing a single machine for personal use, but like many things it sort of spiraled out of control from there.
I felt like espresso machines were getting very large, plasticky, and app-integrated without actually improving the underlying technologies that make them work. The noisy vibratory pumps in particular are from 1977 and haven’t really changed since then. So I wanted to focus on making the most advanced internals I could and leaving everything else as minimalist as possible. The pump is, as far as I know, completely unique in terms of power density and price. Without spending several thousand dollars, it was difficult to find a machine with a gear pump, and adjustable pressure was also similarly expensive but this machine has those things and costs a normal amount to buy. You can also turn the pressure way down and make filter coffee.
I also saw so many people (including myself) using a scale while making espresso, and even putting a cup below the group head to catch drips, entirely negating the drip tray, so I basically designed for that! The profile of the machine is much lighter on the eyes and doesn’t loom in the corner like my old espresso machine did.
And for the grinder, basically everything on the market uses conical and flat burrs that have descended from spice grinders, and the same couple of standard sizes. Sometimes larger companies design their own burrs, but only within those existing shapes. There is sort of a rush to put larger and larger burrs into coffee grinders, which makes sense, but with cylindrical burrs, you can increase the cutting surface way more relative to the size of the grinder. When grinders get too big, maintaining alignment becomes mechanically cumbersome, but the cylindrical burr can be very well supported from the inside, and there is the added benefit of hiding the entire motor within the burr itself. The resulting grounds are just outright better than all the other grinders I have used, but obviously this is a matter of taste and my own personal bias.
The biggest downside for the grinder is that it doesn’t work with starbucks style oily roasts, because the coffee expands so much while traveling down through the burrs and can sometimes clog up the teeth. It doesn’t hurt the grinder but it does require cleaning (which is tool-free!). Another downside for both machines is the fact that they run on DC power so it’s best if you have a spot in your kitchen to tuck away the power brick.
I also made a kit that makes the gear pump a drop-in upgrade for other espresso machines, to reduce noise and add adjustable pressure.
https://velofuso.com/store/p/gear-pump-upgrade-kit
The roughest part of this process were the moments midway through development where they weren’t working at all. When the grinder is just jamming itself instantly or the fourth factory in a row tells you the part you’re making is impossible or the pump is alternating between spraying water out the side and into your face and not pumping at all. And the default thought is “Of course it’s not working, if this was going to work someone else would have already made it like this”. The route you’ve taken is fundamentally different enough that there are no existing solutions to draw on. You’re basically feeling around in the dark for months on end, burning money, and then one day, every little cumulative change suddenly adds up to a tasty espresso. And it’s not perfect yet, but you at least can see the road ahead.
Anyways, this is way more than I expected to write, thank you for reading! Tell me if you have any questions
m000|5mon ago
Congrats! The design looks nice, but I'm not very fond of the website design. There isn't a single picture of Trefolo that doesn't crop-out some part of it. Also, every picture is in a "sterile" environment. It would be nice to have a picture of it on a real kitchen counter or coffee corner to put its dimensions into perspective, and also demonstrate how it "fades back into the environment".
Also, IMHO, the sustainability pitch is a nice one but needs to be put down in more precise terms. It is good as it is for people who would otherwise buy a Nespresso machine, but anyone who has bought something above that level would need more convincing.
Overall, a good espresso machine already scores pretty high sustainability-wise. Apart from the used of sustainable/premium materials, a key factor to that is the replacement parts and repairability. So, how does Trefolo do in terms of replacement parts and compatibility with 3rd party parts?
For me, the future lack of replacement parts is especially concerning for the Turbina coffee grinder. The use of bespoke grinding burrs adds a wow factor and may be functionally superior to other types of burrs. But this is the one part in the whole setup that is guaranteed to need replacement down the road. What are the provisions for that? How much would it cost? And if you decide to stop selling it, would you e.g. be willing to commit to releasing the burr design so owners or some independent manufacturer can machine replacements?
smeeeeeeeeeeeee|5mon ago
Thank you so much! I appreciate the advice about the potentially over stylized product pages. If you go to the store here, you can see many full profile views of the products:
You raise a ton of good points.
- It's going to ship with a full spare parts catalogue available
- Full prusa-esque upgrade paths will be made available for existing customers
- Every single part on either product can be changed off with the removal of 1-5 screws.
- The switches, cords, buttons, and (gear)motors are all standard sizes.
- and I absolutely commit to open sourcing everything if a day came where the project could not continue (I have done this for previous projects, it isn't an empty promise)
You make a good point about the burrs being a non-standard size. The thing to remember is every size of burr was once a non standard size. One of the most important parts of being a good engineer is only making something new when you can truly add value, and I think the burrs are valuable enough to have them be probably the only non-standard wear item in either machine.
skrebbel|5mon ago
Just to chip in with the drive-by website feedback, I just realized that (I love everything about this and) I have no idea how big either the espresso machine or the grinder is. I think I'd really need some realistic (ish) kitchen photos with it in action to really appreciate what I'd be ordering.
m000|5mon ago
Appreciated that you took the time to address my points. Glad to see that it's probably the website design that doesn't do justice to the product.
IMHO, you should be putting these details in the spotlight. As a new brand in the espresso world, this would help convince customers go with you instead of a tried-and-trusted brand with decades of history on their back. Also, if there is a hackable PID controller or if there are plans to add one, this would also be a selling point for many (see the renewed popularity of the relatively humble Gaggia Classic).
For the burrs, maybe running a lab test of Turbina against a traditional grinder of the same class would help make a solid argument for the new design. E.g. start grinding 2 kilo batches on each grinder and then take a sample and lab-test it for consistency. Continue until the ground coffee becomes inconsistent on both. Yes, this may turn out to be pricey. And maybe there are established test procedures that I'm not aware of (not a coffee pro - just pulled this out of my engineering bottom).
As a final comment, for the wooden parts of Trefolo, maybe a darker or even black varnish would look more premium/classy. The pale wood color is vaguely reminiscent of IKEA furniture, something you probably want to avoid.
sixo|5mon ago
Re website, The photography is also noticeably low-resolution, which stands out immediately
ed_db|5mon ago
Exactly this! It immediately turned me off from the product when I realised there isn’t a single practical image of it. It’s impossible to visualise how it would actually look on the counter.
crazygringo|5mon ago
Agreed. And please -- show a video of it working, start to finish! This is clearly a product designed to be a sensory experience, so let me see and hear this on a kitchen counter pulling a shot or two.
not_your_mentat|5mon ago
The video of the device in operation with the entire device in frame please. You could still even switch between sexy angles.
alexwebb2|5mon ago
Yep, I looked for a couple minutes and concluded “must be ugly since they clearly don’t want to show it to me”.
amluto|5mon ago
I would also like to see a user’s manual and a diagram of how it’s plumbed. Where does the hot water come from? Does the user supply their own kettle? Where does excess water go when pressure is released? How does the preheating cycle work?
smeeeeeeeeeeeee|5mon ago
Hey there!
Yep, you bring the hot water, the machine does everything else! There is a pressure seal directly in the group head that holds the water in at the end of a shot. You can preheat just by pumping water into a cup for a couple seconds, which is around the same as a purge cycle on a traditional espresso machine. The fluid path is kept as small and as insulated as possible to avoid thermal losses or unnecessary water being held in the machine.
I added a pre-release version of the manual to the warranty page! Please excuse any minor errors.
I definitely agree that there needs to be a simple clean 30 second video of the full workflow with every part visible - I will work on that ASAP.
IAmGraydon|5mon ago
Hang on...you are running a plastic tube to a kettle on your stovetop?? There is zero chance that the water getting to the device is anywhere near the right temperature after going through a length of plastic tubing. As you know, temperature, pressure and grind are the three ingredients that make good espresso. This throws temperature control out the window and would make the temperature wildly swing depending upon the speed and volume of the extraction. Warm up time is crazy too, as you have to boil a pot of water. Most machines take around 30-40 seconds, but Breville has really perfected this and their new machines come up to temp in a miraculous 3 seconds.
Besides that, anyone who has used an espresso machine knows that there's quite a bit of resistance when locking in a portafilter so that it seals properly. This thing looks like it would move off your countertop before the portafilter would lock in. Do you have to hold the legs with one hand while you lock the portafilter or something?
benoliver999|5mon ago
This is the main issue with those hand pull machines that don't have a boiler. It's so so fussy getting the temperature right, you have to warm everything up first then it's a race against time and even then you never really controlled the temps.
halflife|5mon ago
Very very good points
0xffff2|5mon ago
Sorry I can't look at your product page from work, but am I getting the correct impression that this machine doesn't have a boiler? If so, my (meant in good fun) suggestion is that you have in fact designed half an espresso machine :)
smeeeeeeeeeeeee|5mon ago
Hahahaha, that is fair, but I like to think it is the important half =]
We figured out how to heat water thousands of years ago. Flow control is considerably newer
eekfuh|5mon ago
| We figured out how to heat water thousands of years ago
Then why doesn't this device heat the water
menaerus|5mon ago
With all due respect, you have to figure this out since not many people are going to pay $700 for half of what a $100 device can do. Honest advice not a critique. It must be hard not to read the negativity from some comments but this is already a great job that you had done! You just need to continue building on it IMHO.
greenthrow|5mon ago
Yeah but having the water hit the grounds at the right temperature is what separates a great machine from an average machine. Yours doesn't do that. Congratz on everything you've done so far but I am your target customer and won't consider a machine that doesn't also manage the water temperature.
lallysingh|5mon ago
Yeah dude until I saw that it needs an external apparatus, I was quite interested.
otekengineering|5mon ago
Externally supplied hot water through a plastic tube makes this a non-starter for me. You use almost no plastic (wonderful!), but the little there is has a lot of surface area touching hot water.
Have you thought about making a water heater accessory? I'd be open to collaborating - contact[at]otekengineer.com
That grinder is a thing of beauty. I was going to impulsively splurge until I saw the price (not complaining, you're doing the right thing by launching at a high price point).
6510|5mon ago
my preference would be pictures of all angles and a single shot video start to finish.
stop hiding, be proud.
I've just looked at low end robot vacuum cleaners. It was hilarious, non of them are willing to show the product in action.
manarth|5mon ago
> you bring the hot water
E.g.
- Hot water poured in from a kettle?
- Hot water plumbed in from a domestic hot-water supply?
- Hot water plumbed in from a boiling water tap (such as Quooker?)
roflyear|5mon ago
Reading the manual, it seems like a hose is placed into a kettle, and the pump is in the machine.
amluto|5mon ago
> There is a pressure seal directly in the group head that holds the water in at the end of a shot.
Like a check valve? Does that mean that some (clean) water is trapped between the pump's output and the seal at the end of the shot? If so, this doesn't seem so terrible.
One thing I've often found odd about espresso machines is that they all seem to have some mechanism to depressurize the basket when a shot ends, and that this mechanism lets water that may have been in contact with the grounds go through some portion of the machine. What's the point? The pressure will naturally dissipate quite quickly through the grounds unless like kind of pressure-retaining basket is in use.
rustman123|5mon ago
Basically it removes excess water from the filter, creating less soggy pucks. Easier to clean. I imagine the rapid depressurisation "upwards" may cause the puck to move a bit upwards, again, making it easier to remove.
neogodless|5mon ago
I'd also like to add that everything I click seems to open a new tab/window. Can't I just view the coffee devices and store all in a single tab? Details? New window. Shop? New window! Back to the details? New window. Contact? New window!! I don't like having all these extra tabs to close without a good reason for it.
f1shy|5mon ago
Excellent comment. I beg the OP to address the topics, specially spare parts, so I can buy it.
hsshhshshjk|5mon ago
I was also looking for a full, non edited, non animated, non faded picture of the machine.
turnsout|5mon ago
He has "full body" shots in the actual store, but I agree—it would be great to see a clearer shot, maybe lower in the flow.
krisoft|5mon ago
> He has "full body" shots in the actual store
Is this the image you are thinking about? https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/642b16caa70131...
Because the problem is that it is not the "full body" of the coffee maker. Those pipes go somewhere. At least in the sense of how people usually think of an espresso machine the machine also contains the pump and the boiler. This apparently doesn't have those parts? Or if it has they are not good looking and minimalist enough to show.
We are discussing the photos as if those are the problem, but I think the issue people are having is with the product design. If I make a picture of a laptop on a charger people don't ask where do the cable go, because they know it goes into a charger connected to the wall. But with this people have to imagine a standalone boiler/pump setup just waiting to be connected into this coffee extractor thingy which is not a thing most people have (or expect to one day have ) in their kitchen.
taway789aaa6|5mon ago
Surely that image is a computer rendering and not an actual photo though! I want to see an _actual_ photo. Like on a counter. How big is it? Wires? Power brick? Cool concept, but hard to make a decision with so little information.
krisoft|5mon ago
> Cool concept, but hard to make a decision with so little information.
It sounds like it is not hard to make the decision. I made my decision and it is a no. This is a cool thing for people who want to try the latest concepts but don't worry about it being an already polished and integrated whole product.
It is how some people kit build their Rutan Long-EZ to fly with, and some people just buy tickets from an airline. They are both flying but they are not the same class of thing. This is more towards the kit built airplane end of the scale for me than what I would be comfortable with.
boneitis|5mon ago
> It sounds like it is not hard to make the decision. I made my decision and it is a no. This is a cool thing for people who want to try the latest concepts but don't worry about it being an already polished and integrated whole product.
I got to push back on this and align with the dozens of other comments being critical of the website. If I had the physical and budgetary space for it, I'd already be salivating at this point and wanting to hear more, polished or not.
But, the website is utterly lacking in conveyance of practical use and just dressed up in marketing design. While there is a disclaimer that the (device) design may undergo further revision, it's orthogonal to the fact that this completely kills any chance of an immediate, impulse buy (again, if I had the space). I would at this point be asking other buyers to post videos of it in use long after units have already been sold into the wild.
I do take my coffee somewhat seriously, with the consumption of fresh microroasted beans and a few prized pieces of brew equipment.
boneitis|5mon ago
Want to try turning my comment more constructive (though my frustations with what passes for customer service/relations these days will bleed through)
I see that the OP has already stated they will upload some videos. That would be great; many angles, both in use and not in use, both overview and zoomed in on components.
I am not most people, but I would prefer the kind of videos without excessive (though not to say "devoid of") pre-/post-processing, editing, green-screening, video cuts every three seconds, and all that shebang. Even your teenaged child or friend/significant other conscripted for twenty minutes to hold the phone with a steady hand while you show things off, minimally rehearsed and to-the-point... would be _fantastic_.
Don't even need to publish it on the official website if you deem it too tacky; but it will be infinitely more valuable to have on the ready than no demonstration at all if people are reaching out to you through channels like HN or even any address listed on the website. IMO.
sgc|5mon ago
The only way this type of thing takes off today is if it gets reviews. I am sure he will send out test devices to the usual suspects and we will see third party reviews.
I think people are being a bit harsh about the site and presentation. I think most of the criticisms are legitimate, but it is only fair to recognize the trends right now; it is no better or worse than most any other new product website - which tend to be similarly devoid of real information, no matter how much the product might cost.
From looking at the site and reading his comments here, this is a soft-launch / teaser, and he seems receptive to feedback. I look forward to seeing how things progress. I especially look forward to some solid videos showing everything in action. As with all things coffee, I can only be cautiously optimistic. But that means he is doing great :)
boneitis|5mon ago
A bit of a catch-22, right? In any case, there is going to be an "in the meantime" until reviews get published, and probably even more time before some more well-known channels possibly decide to get their hands on it and talk about it.
Any effort to get early wave buy-in from a certain (IMO critical and not uncommon) type of enthusiast (i.e., someone like me) in that meantime will be cripplingly handicapped by their web presence lacking information and not showing anything w.r.t. what the real-life use looks like.
I suppose that's my feedback, but you are right about the good move to make themself available here for feedback/Q&A. I'm jealous that I don't have the funds right now to actually consider buying one, so I'm here pontificating instead.
sgc|5mon ago
I personally am heavily considering pre-ordering a pump for my old Ms Silvia that has already undergone the knife many times, and then more long term I really like the idea of the grinder. But I won't be buying until they do their follow up and provide the richer detail you require as well. I was mainly saying it is not a special omission that indicates anything about the product to me (unfortunately, that is the state of the relevant arts right now).
I suppose it says something important about the major defects with modern marketing that many people stopped there. Although I often would do the same, I did not, because I sense there is something great in this product line, and I want to be uncharacteristically patient to allow it to blossom.
krisoft|5mon ago
> I got to push back on this
Push back on what exactly though? I claimed that it is not hard to decide if one wants to buy it. I just decided that i don’t want to buy it. It sounds like you came to the same decision. So what is exactly the thing you disagree with me?
boneitis|5mon ago
Well, it's not hard only because the website completely lacked any useful detail to inform the decision. In the end, it's a great play by OP to come here and open up a Q&A.
throwaway2037|5mon ago
> fresh microroasted beans
boneitis|5mon ago
I'm admittedly corrupting the term a bit, but I mean beans from a local-scale coffee (micro)roaster in the same sense as a local beer (micro)brewery.
smeeeeeeeeeeeee|5mon ago
There are actually no renderings on the website except for that one cross-section of the grinder, the internals are rendered there.
But absolutely, going to add more "banana for scale" photos asap
yojo|5mon ago
Reading between the lines, I’m pretty sure the pump is integrated in the housing (that’s their custom “bespoke, brushless gear pump”), and the boiler is your electric kettle. So I think you could just drop the end of the tube into your kettle and call it a day.
The kind of coffee enthusiast who is going to preorder a $650 unreviewed coffee machine probably has at least one temp holding kettle they use for pour over.
But fully agreed this needs some clarity on the website.
krisoft|5mon ago
OH! I think you might be right. Oh! That explains it. Thank you.
Thinking about it now, of course. What else would the power lead be for? It doesn't heat the water. The pump being in that part can be the only other explanation.
> The kind of coffee enthusiast who is going to preorder a $650 unreviewed coffee machine probably has at least one temp holding kettle they use for pour over.
Yeah. I think that's the key here. This is for an enthusiast who wants the latest coolest tech, and is willing to accept some amount of discomfort for it.
XCSme|5mon ago
This was my first impression too. On a large, 4k display, I could barely read anything, all I saw was a really zoomed-in photo of some device.
ajb|5mon ago
It's interesting that he's made this visual mistake even as a person whose main concern is the product. So many photographers/videographers make the same mistake, and I guess he's copied them rather than thinking through what his market needs.
The error is basically to film the product as if it was a sexy woman. I'll put it bluntly: I don't want to fuck your product. I might want to buy it but only if you show me the practical details. (Speaking generally - I'm not in the market for a coffee machine). Videos that solely try to convey allure and mistique are a net negative for the vast majority of products.
havefunbesafe|5mon ago
This is very good news, as designing a physical product like this is 20x more difficult than designing a website!
cryptozeus|5mon ago
My bad ! Should not have said my comment about the website earlier. Apologies to op, i am human, this is how communication should be.
hardwaregeek|5mon ago
Yeah, I couldn't tell if the photos were real or were rendered images
smeeeeeeeeeeeee|5mon ago
They are all real! But I definitely need to have more photos in actual environments.
teknolog|5mon ago
I for one can't read a word while there are moving pictures around. That's one of the main reasons I block ads. So please, remove the video and stick with stills! Animated stills while scrolling is fine, however.
eps|5mon ago
It's a good presentation, but it's not sufficient as a sales pitch. A non-staged video of both the grinder and the machine in use would be required to place an order, at least for me. As others have mentioned it's not clear where the water pipes go exactly and how the machine is powered.
Also, for $700 independent reviews are also a must.
For the pump kit - this too looks interesting, but requires (way) more details. At the very least a list of supported machines and, again, a video or two of an actual retrofit. Dimensions, voltage (!), etc.
ivanvanderbyl|5mon ago
Get this in the hands of James Hoffman, I’d love to hear his take on it
simonjgreen|5mon ago
It’s fascinating how he has become to coffee as MKBHD has to technology. The kingmaker of coffee gear.
tschwimmer|5mon ago
Unlike MKBHD, James Hoffman has some slightly more objective credibility. He won some barista competitions about 15 years ago. He's been involved in the coffee industry (outside of being a content creator) for most of his life. As far as I know about Marques, his main qualification is that he was just relatively early to the tech review game.
That is not to say that I personally take all or most of Hoffman's suggestions at face value. It's abundantly clear that the level of nuance he considers in coffee is not relevant to me. But I do tend to see him applying a much more objective level of rigor to his reviews than many other content creators.
ZephyrBlu|5mon ago
The draw of MKBHD has nothing to do with "objective credibility". Consumer tech reviews are more about whether the reviewer will discuss daily usability objectively, and entertainment.
Coffee is more niche. It makes more sense for "objective credibility" to play a role there.
MrSkelter|5mon ago
Very few tech reviewers have anything other than experience. Nilay Patel trained as a lawyer. He can’t code, can’t engineer, isn’t an industrial designer etc. it’s one reason why tech reviews are so obsessed with keyboards. For most reviewers keyboard feel is one of the few areas they have real expertise in.
MKBHD is absolutely as qualified as 99% of his peers.
tredre3|5mon ago
Nilay Patel is an odd example to use. He has absolutely no credibility and he just attacks critics when his errors are pointed out.
VeejayRampay|5mon ago
he's also fair, often trashes big brands when their products are mediocre
I have great respect for his integrity and body of work
krowek|5mon ago
He's also deleted some of his videos because they had mentions to brands or companies with wrong practices (yes, plain wrong).
Also has very good books. So, totally not the average youtuber/content creator out there.
dogboat|5mon ago
When he trashed the aldi espresso machine I think he was unfair. The main issues with it are probably the same issues you get on a Breville until you tune the OPV and get a seperate grinder. That said I dont think he is the screwdriver to espresso machine type.
hunter2_|5mon ago
I've got a Bambino Plus and so far the only customizations are a bottomless portafilter, a huge single wall basket (IMS), programming the flow presets for a good ratio by weight in/out, and optimizing the grind specifically for 30s duration. I'll have to look into your OPV suggestion; anything else?
dogboat|5mon ago
Bambino might be OK stock?? Not sure. Only change the OPV if you have a problem to solve. For me it was slightly too fine gets zero extraction and the pressure compacts the puck. Then go a bit coarser and it spews out.
marcellus23|5mon ago
> That said I dont think he is the screwdriver to espresso machine type.
He's mentioned modding espresso machines many times in his videos, and brings it up often during reviews.
diob|5mon ago
Yeah, I wouldn't compare them at all. Hoffman is also by all appearances and mannerisms a standup individual, more of a Mr. Rogers of coffee than anything else, in my opinion.
hunter2_|5mon ago
Mr. Rogers is a great comparison. Something about the sweaters and always wishing viewers a good day!
scarfaceneo|5mon ago
MKBHD is the last person I’d go to for anything tech related.
He, like many others, do little more than just read spec sheets.
I like his car related content though, reckless driving notwithstanding
f1shy|5mon ago
Is there a BOLTR for general tech? For Instruments there is evvlog… but general tech?
TheSpiceIsLife|5mon ago
Alec Watson of Technology Connections is my favourite for technology in general.
MostlyStable|5mon ago
You know, I've watched basically every video of his for several years now (as well as going back in the archives for some of his older stuff), and I think this is the first time I've ever encountered his name.
TheSpiceIsLife|5mon ago
Is there a way to get hours watched for a particular channel out of YouTube?
Another high-hour channel for me is Petter of Mentour Pilot.
As an Australian, those two guys accents their way of framing things are like mum’s lullabies.
kisonecat|5mon ago
He has made me extremely enthusiastic for heat pumps.
VTimofeenko|5mon ago
Me too, though it turns out certain types of houses don't support just replacing furnace with a central heat pump. No free lunch in thermodynamics :(
TheSpiceIsLife|5mon ago
Have you heard about brown?
bubblethink|5mon ago
I have found Mr. Mobile (Michael Fisher) to be quite good. He does some sort of a road trip or excursion as a real world tech review and also covers a lot of old and quirky hardware.
oigursh|5mon ago
+1 for MrMobile (Michael Fisher), he comes across as more impartial than a lot of the other folks.
presentation|5mon ago
I find his channel useful just for getting an opinion from a end-user perspective of what a product is like; that's a legitimate opinion, not every data point needs to be a deep dive into the manufacturing process of a particular gadget.
deanc|5mon ago
Regarding grinders there's actually someone else who is considered the kingmaker: Lance Hedrick [1]
xyst|5mon ago
mkbhd over the years has had some really bad takes on tech. I haven’t used his channel for quite awhile.
I would say his success is largely due to being among the first to the market in tech reviews and having (at the time) better production quality.
peterlada|5mon ago
St James, the protector saint of all things covfefe.
petepete|5mon ago
Thankfully it's quite difficult to grind and brew coffee dangerously.
tpm|5mon ago
Not really, moka pots are known to explode.
GTP|5mon ago
Source? I'm from Italy, where everybody's using them, but never heard of a single one exploding. Maybe you can find an isolated case, but I'm confident it's extremely rare. There's a safety valve to release pressure after all, and if you use the Moka correctly the valve never has to engage.
K0balt|5mon ago
I’m in the Dominican Republic, and moka pots are 99 percent of the market here as well. Everyone warns me about moka pots exploding, but I’ve never met anyone (15 years here now) that knows of one first hand that actually exploded.
But everyone is terrified of mokasplosion.
I’ll admit, the prospect of a pressurized vessel of boiling water is a potent reminder for precautionary thinking.
GTP|5mon ago
Minor nitpick here, but it's a fact I found interesting when I heard about it. The water inside a Moka doesn't boil, you can indeed observe that the water coming out from the top isn't boiling. What happens is that the air that is left inside the bottom chamber expands due to the heat, pushing the water upwards.
K0balt|5mon ago
I think YMMV with this.
The custom where I am at is to load the moka pot with a grind and quantity that produces a significant barrier to the flow of water.
The alert that the brew is finished is the sound of the boiling hot water and steam spraying the coffee through the standpipe into the upper chamber, and it is absolutely under steam pressure, I’d say around 5 to 10 psi.
When the liquid water is low enough that it doesn’t get picked up by the lower tube, you get a significant outflow of pure steam hissing through the standpipe nozzle, and then it’s quiet, as the bottom chamber is now completely dry, as are the grounds when you dump them out.
It could be that if you use a coarser grind or less coffee than is customary here, flow restriction does not occur, and the pressure of the heated air and water vapor is enough to push out all of the water through the coffee without reaching 100c (should only take about 1/6 psi for a flow overcoming gravity to that height) but if you used that method here your coffee would fall under heavy criticism.
The violence with which the flow jets into the upper chamber and the volume and aroma of the steam serves somewhat as a social signal as to the “quality” of the coffee, so there is a strong incentive to heavily load the pots here.
Legends of exploding pots are common, as is precautionary disposal of pots whose threads have become excessively worn.
But I still have no first hand knowledge of anyone witnessing an explosion or even an over pressure venting event (there is a small pressure relief valve on the side of the vessel)…. So I suspect that the risk is not that high.
GTP|5mon ago
Interesting, the different way we use mochas can explain why you have stories about explosions: our way is definitely putting less stress on mochas, which end up lasting for decades without the need to be replaced. We use coffee that is specifically ground for mochas, and we fill the chamber with water up until just below the valve (or, at the very limit, the water reaches half the valve). You still hear a sound when the coffee is ready, but it is caused by little sprays of coffee mixed with hot air, not steam.
tpm|5mon ago
This is fascinating to read, thank you.
tpm|5mon ago
Well my wife had one and it exploded (and it was Italian, Bialetti I think), we have several friends with explosions etc. It's of course possible that Italians use it properly and we don't, but I'm not an expert in this topic, so I just stay away from them.
GTP|5mon ago
This is unexpected to me: I would have assumed that, even if you did something wrong, the valve would have prevented an explosion. I can understand a single valve going bad, but if this happened to many of your friends there might be something going on there.
basedrum|5mon ago
Who is mkbhd?
criddell|5mon ago
Product reviewer with a very popular YouTube channel.
rocqua|5mon ago
He wouldn't take it. He'll review it after it's been on the market for about half a year, without any money. Lance hedrick is also a decently respected voice who does usually take sponsored reviews, whilst being honest.
jedimastert|5mon ago
I think Lance Hedrick would like this a lot. I bet he would experiment with changing the pressure during the brewing process
xyst|5mon ago
I agree here. Given the bespoke design, I would love to see a comparison with other machines.
N-Krause|5mon ago
It seems to go where ever you like it to go.
> The result is a freedom to use a far more thermally stable source of hot water - like the kettle you already have. And because no water is stored in the machine - it’s fresh every time.
Seems like a interesting idea, but I feel like there is a crucial point missing. What if I do not want a random water tube hanging into my water kettle? Feels like that is a big hole in a otherwise great thought through product.
paulluuk|5mon ago
Also, having to boil water in a water kettle first is a minor, but significant enough, inconvenience. It's why so many people now have hot water taps for tea, and use espresso machines instead of filter coffee.
ndsipa_pomu|5mon ago
Here in the UK, I only know one person who has a boiling water tap (they've been renovating an old cottage and are a fan of tech) though I wasn't a fan went I went to visit and tried it out (not why I went to visit). I'm more of a fan of the Unix/Linux philosophy of "do one job and do it well" as appliances are more likely to break when they have multiple jobs to do, so I was slightly against the idea of it anyhow. The main criticism I have of it is that it's far more likely to cause scalds/burns as you have to bring the container to the tap (specifically an Aeropress) and it's more difficult to control the flow of water. With a kettle, you can move the kettle to the container and it's far more controllable in terms of water flow. I'm also not a fan of the tap needing to keep pre-heated water in an insulated container all the time - only a small use of energy, but it seems unnecessary to me.
frereubu|5mon ago
I'd be interested in an overall energy use comparison between a kettle and a hot water tap. I know lots of people who boil far too much water for a single cup of tea or coffee (partially due to kettle designs).
TheSpiceIsLife|5mon ago
<opinion>
This problem is solved in its entirety by simply microwaving a cup of water. No wasted water.
If the same / similar cup is used, one can choose the desired temperature of the resultant hot water simply by varying the time. Seasonal variation of ambient water temperature may need to be taken into account.
I tend not to drink coffee, and I prefer to make tea with less-than-boiling water.
YMMV
</opinion.
Now that I’ve written that, I’ll have to put a power meter on the microwave and a kettle and report back with the results. My kettle recently broke and I hadn’t intended to replace.
prewett|5mon ago
I've tried that, and there are two problems. One is that water has a tendency to superheat and then boil all over the place when you put the tea in, or it suddenly produces a big bubble and water goes everywhere. The other is that it is hard to get a consistent temperature. Even if you measure it with a thermometer it seems problematic (although perhaps the grocery store thermometers go out of calibration easily). If you're doing herbal tea it might not matter as much, but for something like Chinese green tea, it was always hit or miss. I bought the Bonavita kettle as soon as I found out about it, and now I always have consistent tea with no fuss or mess.
TheSpiceIsLife|5mon ago
My daily driver, a flatbed Panasonic microwave, does a good enough job, but yeah actually boiling the water in a microwave is a recipe for a way too hot cup, and half the water boiling over.
220ml, regular ceramic mug, one minute forty, does what I need, but I’m not tea or coffee connoisseur, just a prole with a box of Twinings loose leaf.
Thanks for the kettle reference, I have been meaning to find a temperature controlled unit.
I recently picked up an inexpensive Thomson branded electric frypan with digital temperature and time controls, well impressed.
ndsipa_pomu|5mon ago
I'd guess that a microwave would "waste" more energy as it's got moving parts and the energy isn't completely directed to heating the water. A kettle also "wastes" some energy as you end up heating the kettle too (from the hot water).
If a microwave was more efficient, I'd expect to see premium kettles that used microwaves instead of a simple heating element, though maybe there'd be design problems with preventing leaking microwaves.
TheSpiceIsLife|5mon ago
Agree, at least to some extent.
For my use cases, I’m not looking to actually boil the water, bringing it up to 80 plus degrees suffices.
The inefficiency kettles bring is the tendency of certain users to heat way more water than their immediate needs.
alias_neo|5mon ago
I don't have a comparison to a kettle because I don't have one, but our Quooker tap took a fraction of a kWh over a couple of months that I measured the energy usage, and my wife uses it daily for tea and we use it most days for boiling water for things like cooking.
The 3L tank that holds the hot water, under the sink is well insulated and it takes almost nothing to keep it at temperature.
Given that it uses such negligible energy that I needn't care, the benefits of instant boiling water whenever we like and not having an extra appliance no the counter-top make it a clear winner for us.
frereubu|5mon ago
Interesting, thanks. I really like the idea but the thing I'd miss from our kettle is the ability to change to lower temperatures for different kinds of tea. You shouldn't really use boiling water for some kinds of green tea, for example. I guess you can mix in some cold water to reach close to the right temperature, but I'd miss the convenience.
alias_neo|5mon ago
I've never come across a kettle that changes temperature, or is it that you can stop it boiling when you feel it's about right?
My wife drinks tea (I'm a coffee drinker) and I make tea (just simple, English Breakfast with milk) for her quite often, and we both use it for cooking. It was something she'd always wanted, and she's not much into "gadgets" but she's been very happy with this, so I'm happy.
inferiorhuman|5mon ago
I've got the OXO adjustable temp one. It lets you select a temperature between 40 and 100 °C in one degree increments. I wish it were a bit smaller and could heat to a lower temp (for e.g. proofing yeast), but otherwise it's pretty nice. As it's an American market product it's limited to 1500W, which is still pretty quick but nowhere near the speed of something designed for 240V mains.
The biggest problem I've had so far was that Amazon seems to only stock used/counterfeit units. Buying direct from OXO got me on that hadn't been used and didn't reek of volatile organic compounds on the first try.
alias_neo|5mon ago
> The biggest problem I've had so far was that Amazon seems to only stock used/counterfeit units. Buying direct from OXO got me on that hadn't been used and didn't reek of volatile organic compounds on the first try.
This is slighly terrifying; and interesting that something like this would be counterfeited. I too would make any and all efforts to ensure I was using something legit where mains (240V for me) are concerned.
I once bought a knock-off hot-air soldering station without knowing, and once I looked into it, people were complaining they'd received units where the live was "grounded" to the case.
I opened mine to check, not quite as bad, but the live in mine wasn't attached to the metal case, just bare, and within about 1cm of it. I reported it to the retailer (we all know which major online retailer this was), and they did nothing. Let's just say things changed, seriously, for me that day when it comes to buying anything mains powered with uncertain origins.
inferiorhuman|5mon ago
This may have been the tipping point for me. I got two from Amazon. One was obviously used and had lots of hard water deposits. The other had a very strong VOC odor to it. Around this time I'd started looking more closely at items purchased from Amazon and they'd often appear to be lower quality (if not blatantly counterfeit). Even if I didn't despise Bezos this would've put me off Amazon.
ThermoWorks refused to sell their products on Amazon for quite a while. Apparently they've changed their stance but I wouldn't risk it.
Anyways the kettle is nice to have that I use daily for coffee even though I now have an induction stove with burners that are far more powerful than the kettle. Stateside, circuits for electric ranges are 240V, 50A (occasionally 40A on older buildings).
throwaway2037|5mon ago
> Even if I didn't despise Bezos
ndsipa_pomu|5mon ago
Probably due to him making a fortune by exploiting and underpaying his employees. His workers are reduced to pissing into bottles to save time whilst Bezos is mucking around flying in space.
ndsipa_pomu|5mon ago
> I've never come across a kettle that changes temperature, or is it that you can stop it boiling when you feel it's about right?
There's several around - I've got one that allows you to choose between 70°C, 80°C, 90°C and boiling (along with a keep-warm option that's never used). I use the 80°C option all the time for making coffee (Aeropress) and use the 70°C for things like green tea (black tea should be 100°C of course).
It's a mistake to use boiling water when making coffee - it'll extract a bitter flavour.
alias_neo|5mon ago
> I've got one that allows you to choose between 70°C, 80°C, 90°C
That's really cool, I suppose I haven't really looked, being a coffee drinker, a kettle was never important to me.
> It's a mistake to use boiling water when making coffee - it'll extract a bitter flavour.
I have two espresso machines, one in the kitchen and one in my home office, I also have an Aeropress like yourself, love it, but I only use that for travelling. Wouldn't dare pour boiling water over my freshly ground coffee :)
prewett|5mon ago
The Bonavita kettle lets you set in 1 def F (or C, if you prefer) increments, with some common presets. I've used it for making Chinese tea for years.
frereubu|5mon ago
We have an earlier version of this: https://www.bosch-home.co.uk/en/mkt-product/food-preparation...
The only annoying thing about it is that the fill indicator is rather hidden by the handle, but otherwise we really like it.
alias_neo|5mon ago
Ah that looks cool, got a sort of retro-coffee filter machine for the office look to it too (I love Bosch appliances).
I never understood why so many kettles always put the fill indicator behind the handle, which of course you'd be holding when filling it up. The first time I saw one with a large, clearly graduated window on the side (and wasn't also a cheap, white plastic kettle) I was impressed, being the nerd I am.
ndsipa_pomu|5mon ago
When I was trying out my friends' boiling water tap, I had to much around with putting in some cold water into the Aeropress first, before then adding the boiling water. If I had to use one for longer than a weekend, I'd probably use a small jug for mixing the water to the right temperature first.
alias_neo|5mon ago
Very good point, it's good for when you want water at that specific temperature but could end up being an inconvenience depending on how you intend to use it. I have a few different thermermometers in the kitchen, plus a laser one and my Pixel now has one (for some unknown reason) so I use those to check the temps of things in the kitchen when I need to know.
Hot drinks can be a bit of a ritual, as I'm sure you understand as an aeropress user, so I don't mind a bit of work to get the right brew if I need to do it, in fact one of the things I enjoy about taking my aeropress when I'm travelling whether camping or any other break, is having my coffee ritual with me.
teruakohatu|5mon ago
Here in New Zealand they seem to be installed in every new or renovated office kitchen. Prior to that a boiling water tank that is mounted on the wall and allows instant near building water for tea.
Those boiling water tanks would be very hard for a child to access without a lot of effort. Those boiling taps are sometimes close to the cold/warm water tap.
ndsipa_pomu|5mon ago
The ones that I'm referring to are a single kitchen mixer tap that does the usual cold and hot, but also a boiling option.
michaelt|5mon ago
As far as I can tell, the target market for steaming hot water taps is office kitchens.
When a kitchen serves 100+ people things like limescale will inevitably be a problem. If the steaming hot water tap is plumbed in, with replaceable water filters and a regular service contract - that's an advantage, not a disadvantage.
Steaming hot water taps can supply lots of hot water fast, so even if a load of people are making drinks at the same time in between meetings, they can keep up.
There's also a safety argument that if you've got a kettle and a mug, that's two things of boiling water you could drop, and eliminating one of the two makes things safer. And because the steaming hot water tap is directly above a drain, the impact of a spill is much reduced. And a lot of these taps make water that is steaming but somewhat below boiling, which might be safer or something?
Not sure why you'd want one for home though.
alias_neo|5mon ago
I have a Quooker tap, and no kettle. It's a game changer in the kitchen, need boiling water for cooking and it's instantly available, and my wife can have tea in a second whenever she wants, no waiting around or boiling a certain amount in the kettle, also one less appliance on the counter-top.
The energy usage is indeed minimal; I've measured it with a power meter over a couple of months and barely used a fraction of a kWh.
There are other boiling water taps, but Quooker is incredibly well built, really simple, and was created in an era of making things to last, it's got a price tag to match, but well worth it in our households opinion.
paulluuk|5mon ago
Sorry, I meant that they are installed in nearly all newly built houses, at least in my country. I don't imagine you'd find many in older kitchens.
michaelmior|5mon ago
> so many people now have hot water taps for tea
I know they exist but I've only ever seen one house with such a tap and that was a very well off family member. I don't think these are terribly common.
noduerme|5mon ago
They're not so wildly expensive. a couple hundred bucks maybe. My mom got one years ago, and it's really convenient for quick pour-over coffee. Great if you're in a hurry. I use a moka pot at home, but the 10 minutes it takes to boil while I putter around the kitchen trying to remember my name are really the most worthless of the day.
GTP|5mon ago
Minor nitpick here, but it's a fact I found interesting when I heard about it. The water inside a Moka doesn't boil, you can indeed observe that the water coming out from the top isn't boiling. What happens is that the air that is left inside the bottom chamber expands due to the heat, pushing the water upwards.
alias_neo|5mon ago
We have a Quooker and I recommend them to all our friends who ask, it's more expensive than others (starting at around £1200) but it's incredibly well built, designed/created in an era of making things to last, and they seems to stand by that; you can get spare parts and they sell a service kit for £25 (last I bought it) with the filter that you can replace every few years if you want, but you can also buy the individual parts of system like a new tank, just the core/element, etc.
oigursh|5mon ago
"starting at around £1200"! It would need to bring it to my chair for that price.
OJFord|5mon ago
I wanted one but also baulked at the price, got a ~£200 drop ship special instead. I might actually prefer it to the Quooker tbh - it doesn't spit. (The spitting is apparently a safety feature, but guess which one I've burnt myself on...)
leoedin|5mon ago
My experience of boiling water taps in offices is that they're not actually hot enough for decent tea.
How's your experience been? Do you preheat your mug before brewing? I like tea strong and dark!
alias_neo|5mon ago
I'm not much of a tea drinker myself, but I make it for my wife, the Quooker tap dispenses water at 100°C which I believe is sufficient for tea, I can brew it quite dark and it keeps a good temperature after adding milk.
As for pre-heating, I tend to use it to pre-heat my wife's tea mug and my coffee cup before I brew with the espresso machine in the kitchen, by filling it part way for a few seconds and then pouring away; mostly to take the chill off, as our kitchen can be cold in the mornings.
I know there are lots of other cheaper brands but my understanding from researching several of them a few years back was that many/most of the cheaper ones won't keep up with the Quooker, won't be as reliable, and likely won't have the after sales support as a product from a company that specialised in that single product. There are the office ones you speak of but they're been weaker performing in my anecdotal experience of our office, and often come with service contracts.
dsego|5mon ago
Seems like good way to get third degree burns if you're not careful? I just put my water filled mug in the microwave (with a spoon in to avoid superheating).
alias_neo|5mon ago
I've put my hand under the boiling tap once, it hurt a bit but I wasn't burned. Someone told me it has some sort of atomiser mechanism in the tap when the water is ejected to reduce the chance of burns, but I haven't looked into it and I'm not sure how true that is.
It's a quite deliberate and slightly difficult action to activate the boiling water, there's a ring around the base of the spout that you have to double-press and twist on the second press, completely independent of the normal cold/hot water.
I have two young children and honestly, I'm not concerned either for them, my wife, nor myself that there's any risk.
Using the microwave is a perfectly good solution I think, but I don't know many people who do that, and although it's fine for tea etc for one person, it won't do a house-full of cups of tea in seconds, nor fill a pan with boiling water.
I wouldn't dare to suggest that it's the best thing for everyone, but we are extremely happy with its utility in our home.
EDIT: Typos
BrandoElFollito|5mon ago
> so many people now have hot water taps for tea
I have never seen that anywhere at houses I visited in France, Germany, Italy, Poland, a few US.
I am not saying that this is not a thing, it is just that "so many" depends on the demographics.
paulluuk|5mon ago
Sorry, I meant that they are installed in nearly all newly built houses, at least in my country. I don't imagine you'd find many in older kitchens.Sorry, I meant that they are installed in nearly all newly built houses, at least in my country. I don't imagine you'd find many in older kitchens.
BrandoElFollito|5mon ago
Out of curiosity - which country is it?
paulluuk|5mon ago
The Netherlands
brynx97|5mon ago
I wouldn't consider it an inconvenience in my kitchen. I'm highly interested in this. However, $700 is a lot. So, like others mentioned, I'd first like to see a demo video at the very least of it in action.
Different teas require different and specific temperatures for optimal results. A hot water tap cannot do this. I love the minimalism in the product design for this!
tashoecraft|5mon ago
I disagree. There's a very large espresso market for those who want a cheaper device that doesn't have the complications of a boiler. I have a flair espresso machine myself.
Adding a boiler I'd guess would double the price, so I think it's a good decision to leave off.
0xffff2|5mon ago
This isn't a cheaper device though.
shermantanktop|5mon ago
“So many” should be heavily qualified. It’s nowhere near true in my experience (in the US) and I suspect this may only be true in specific places, or economic classes, or maybe it’s just you and two friends.
flakeoil|5mon ago
How much energy is that hot water tap wasting by keeping some tank with water hot throughout the day (and maybe night) for just a few cups of tea/coffee?
OJFord|5mon ago
Not a lot actually, and there's the space from not having a kettle any more; filling pans for pasta/rice/etc. too.
The cheapest ones are about 10x the cheapest kettles. Can't imagine wanting to go back to a kettle personally.
klausa|5mon ago
One of us is making their coffee wrong, because my espresso making is definitely more inconvenient than a pour-over.
globular-toast|5mon ago
Yeah, you would have to really like espresso for this to be worth it. Personally I don't like espresso. The only thing it's good for is the milk drinks, which I also don't particularly like, and being a lazy "push button" coffee. If I'm going to put effort in, filter is the way to go (I use a V60).
I reckon hipsters will be drinking filter in a few years' time, if they aren't already.
As for hot water taps for tea, if you are brewing black/red tea that is usually not good enough as they don't produce truly boiling water, although some do claim to.
pm3003|5mon ago
Cold Brew is glorified filter coffee, especially when made with ultrasonics. It can even simulate the feeling you get when you go back to work while waiting for your coffee to be at drinkable temperature only to find it cold an hour later.
globular-toast|5mon ago
Cold brew coffee and cold filter coffee are two different things. Brewing at a cold temperature for a long period of time results in a very different taste which some people like and some don't. Note that the brewing temperature and drinking temperature are essentially independent; you can heat up cold brew and you can cool down hot brew.
grues-dinner|5mon ago
Is it still thermally stable after a low-speed journey through a long (? Hard to say how long it is, or if you just plonk it into an open kettle of water as there are only close ups) narrow plastic tube? And what about cold water already in the tube?
If thermal stability is important enough to make such an advertising claim, you should probably show a comparison of input temperatures where the water meets the coffee over the course of multiple cycles against a representative competitor. With actual data rather than stylised cartoon graphs like in TV adverts for washing powder or whatever.
Woolly claims like that without clear evidence really make sound like audiophile woo territory, which would be a shame if you've actually done the research!
spressoe|5mon ago
Thermal stability is arguably one of the most important aspects of espresso machine. If the water in the espresso machine boiler is sitting at 95°C, by the time this hot water reaches the group head it will lose some of the temperature. Lose 2°C and you're good. Lose 5°C and you still might be good but already at the edge of getting the crap out of the machine. Lose more than that and you're not gonna want to drink it.
Traditional E61 espresso machines whose water boiler is at ΔT cm's away from the group head, solve the problem of temperature surf with heavy duty pipes, boilers, isolation and materials to keep the temperature loss at the minimum.
More modern espresso machines place the water boiler just above the group head so they're basically solving the problem other way around: keeping the ΔT at minimum so giving no or minimum space for temperature loss.
As for this design, I am not sure how does it solve this problem.
enjo|5mon ago
In addition I would need to some justification for the idea that water stored in a clean tank without access to light is somehow worse than fresh out of a filter.
prmoustache|5mon ago
> Also, for $700 independent reviews are also a must.
Also for $700 you don't want to be the guinea pig.
IAmGraydon|5mon ago
Honestly, $700 is considered a very inexpensive price point in the espresso world.
Kirby64|5mon ago
For something that is essentially a slightly automated manual lever machine, it is quite expensive. Anything from Flair or the other lever machine companies is far less than that.
Without actually fully heating the coffee for your and having a tank, etc, I don’t see a huge advantage here over those types of machines.
tashoecraft|5mon ago
The flair 58 is 600+. So it's slightly more, but from a new manufacturer and has a unique design. I expected it to be at least a $1000, so I think it's definitely price competitive. Though I'd hold off until reviews come in.
Kirby64|5mon ago
So, the Flair 58 is their 'highest end' model and sports a 58mm portafilter... this thing is a 51mm portafilter which is basically only used on smaller portable machines. Also, it's listed on their website for $580. Not sure how you get to 600+ (unless you include tax, I guess).
A more comparable model from Flair would be either the Pro 3 ($325, all metal in the grouphead, pressure gauge, shot mirror... lots of included accessories) or the cheaper models they offer (Classic w/ pressure gauge, $230, Neo Flex, $99).
If you wanted to compare to the Cafelat Robot, that is also only $450... and is all metal, built like a tank, and has a very charming aesthetic.
smeeeeeeeeeeeee|5mon ago
I love all these machines that we're comparing to but they're fundamentally different things - they don't have a pump to fit into their BOM. So maybe:
In the category of "machines that don't froth milk", it might be the most expensive by $50.
In the category of "machines that have pressure control", it might be the cheapest by $700
In the category of "machines that have a rotary pump", it might be the cheapest by $2000.
It's sort of the curse of making something that doesn't clearly fit into a specific category.
51mm portafilters are better and some day the world will come to understand
https://youtu.be/jTAkb-dCFro?si=QQ6K9l99xqOCQl5S
roflyear|5mon ago
The Met doesn't do milk and it is way more expensive, and similar to what you are doing, I think.
Kirby64|5mon ago
The Meticulous is a lower end competition with the Decent Espresso DE1, or a more upscale version of the DIY stuff like Gaggiuino.
Given the author has given us essentially nothing regarding what is actually controllable (besides pressure control?), it's unclear to me what you even can do with it. A simple pressure control is pretty basic and not at all comparable to the Meticulous or a DE1.
roflyear|5mon ago
OP's machine features are:
- Group preheat (so it has some kind of heater) - "Fully adjustable power" - ???
It does seem that the water tube either goes to a kettle and the pump is in the machine, or it goes to a pump, that you then need to attach to a machine, and that clear line is pressurized.
It does potentially have one feature the met doesn't (hinted at by allowing for filter brews): it'll be able to use up the entire water source, not a small amount of water you pour into the machine (similar to the Decent).
Edit: based on the manual just added, it seems like the pump is in the machine.
Kirby64|5mon ago
Best I can tell, with the manual released, this is literally just a pump and a group head. The dial appears to control the pump 'power' (voltage, I assume), and that's about it.
I'm really, really not seeing what could possibly justify this price. If the 'control' is just as simple as an analog knob, then this is no different than adding 'flow control' via a common dimmer switch to any other pump. I've done this modification on vibratory pump models myself, and they function just fine when dimer switch modded.
roflyear|5mon ago
"Just a pump with a group head" is still pretty cool. It isn't revolutionary, temp control is a "big deal" in the community, but it's pretty cool that OP created that.
The pump absolutely is a "big deal" though if they can deliver on it. It has been attempted (Decent is trying to make one - actually they have been trying for years) and no one has delivered on a pump like that to date.
Kirby64|5mon ago
The pump doesn’t appear to offer any meaningful controls. The espresso machine itself seems just voltage controlled. How is that innovative?
roflyear|5mon ago
A small rotary pump would be innovative, nothing like that exists currently. Vibe pumps are loud, but they are tested tech and live forever. A drop in replacement rotary pump would have a big market if it can stand up to use.
Kirby64|5mon ago
Are rotary pumps that large? From what I can tell, they’re relatively small as long as we’re talking the ones sized for single group machines.
roflyear|5mon ago
Yes, they are pretty big. Just the pump alone is larger than the pump + motor for a vibe pump, and the motors for rotary pumps are like 4-5x the size of the pump. So you're really approaching 10x the size, it's kinda wild.
Kirby64|5mon ago
No offense, but we're not really comparing different things. You're offering an espresso machine that fundamentally has:
* No heating control
* No tank/water storage
* No milk frothing capability
The obvious comparison is a manual (lever) espresso machine that does not offer its own heating capability. It offers pressure control (via your arm) just fine.
Also, besides noise complaints and possibly some questionable reasoning involving vibe pump longevity, I have yet to see a compelling reason a rotary pump is better. They're 'nicer' and offered in higher end stuff, but performance wise a very good vibe pump seems just fine. Flow rates are more than adequate for pretty much any normal brewing method.
Regarding 51mm vs 58mm: you might be correct technically, but the ecosystem around accessories is firmly in the 58mm camp. As far as I can tell, the difference is so marginal it doesn't really matter anyways. Puck prep and other things will matter more for the average user.
0xffff2|5mon ago
Is it really? How many home users are really spending that much on an espresso machine? As someone who owns a ~$1000 machine (Profitec Go), I definitely feel like the $500-$1000 range is "end game" for the vast majority of people, not "very inexpensive".
prmoustache|5mon ago
Not if you have used the same bialetti moka pot for decades, only replacing the rubber seal once every year.
esperent|5mon ago
A moka pot isn't an espresso machine. It only generates around 1.5 bars of pressure which is only slightly higher than what you get pushing an aeropress by hand. Espresso needs at minimum 6 bars, although traditionally it's 9 bars.
robocat|5mon ago
Costs at least a few minutes a day, which works out equivalent to plenty of dollars per year if you make it at home and have a well paying job. Works well but I hate cleaning it after making coffee.
dexterdog|5mon ago
I have had a Flair for a few years now and the time is an important aspect. I used to use a Jura and the whole 1-button thing led to me drinking way too much coffee as I also had it mounted next to my desk. The workflow is a meditation and at the end the reward is a (usually) perfect pair of espresso shots.
prmoustache|5mon ago
I am more of a tea guy but I think you can totally cancel the cost of preparing and cleaning it when considering it becomes part of a package of daily movements you should do to stay healthy.
Also you can totally work while the pot is getting to temperature.
wsc981|5mon ago
I hardly ever really clean my Moka pots. Usually, it's just a quick rinse with water. Is it really required to clean a Moka pot often?
robocat|5mon ago
Just washing the grounds out but takes time to cool the moka down. I guess I could leave the grounds in and clean it the next day but that idea is icky to me.
I preheat the moka with hot water and fill it with hot water from jug to reduce time to brew (necessary due to stove setup).